Redefining Spirituality and Science: Beyond Evidence-Based Medicine

In this episode of Conversations in Science and Faith, I was honored to sit down with Dr. Kavitha Chinnaiyan to explore the profound intersection of science, medicine, and inner transformation.

Dr. Chinnaiyan is a cardiologist and professor at William Beaumont School of Medicine. She's a published researcher in the fields of cardiac imaging. And she's also a spiritual teacher integrating ancient traditions under the name Saundaryāmbikā.

From the elegant physics of cardiovascular systems to the deeply human art of patient care, Dr. Chinnaiyan reflected on her journey bridging evidence-based medicine with practices like meditation and yoga. She shared how stress, consciousness, and emotional states directly influence heart health. We also discussed why the future of medicine must advance beyond linear models of cause and effect to a holistic approach.

We talked about the role of spirituality in clinical practice, the importance of humility and openness in patient relationships, and how physicians can integrate scientific rigor with a deeper understanding of human experience. Dr. Chinnaiyan also offered a powerful perspective on non-duality, karma yoga, and the idea that true healing emerges when we move beyond separation of mind and body.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hello and welcome to Conversations in Science and Faith, a series of conversations with scientists, healthcare leaders, and innovators exploring the power of integrating faith, identity, and service into the world of science. Today I'm honored to welcome Dr. Kavita Shinahan, a physician scientist, cardiologist, scholar, author, and spiritual teacher whose life bridges the worlds of science, healing, and sacred wisdom. Dr. Chinayan is a practicing cardiologist and professor of medicine at the Oakland University William Beaumont School of Medicine, where she's widely respected for her leadership in preventative cardiology, advanced cardiac imaging, and woman's heart health, with over 100 peer-reviewed publications and global teaching roles in cardiovascular science. Dr. Chinayan's work bridges more than science in medicine. Under the spiritual name Sondaryambika, she is the founder of the Svatantra Institute, where she integrates ancient wisdom traditions like yoga, tantra, Vedanta, and Ayurveda with modern science to explore human flourishing, resilience, and consciousness. She is the author of several acclaimed books, including Shakti Rising and Fractals of Reality, marrying rigorous inquiry with profound spiritual insight. A wife, mother, clinician, mystic, and guide, Dr. Chinayan brings a uniquely integrated voice to the intersection of science, heart-centered care, and spiritual inquiry, precisely the conversation we're here to explore today. Thank you so much for joining me, Dr. Chinayan, and welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Thank you so much for having me here. It's really an honor for me to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

I appreciate that. I'd love to get started with the question. Can you tell me what first got you interested in cardiovascular medicine?

SPEAKER_02 1:44

I got interested in cardiovascular medicine, I would say, in the first year of medical school. And it was the um, you know, just reading about the heart and the vascular system, and it it was just like coming home. And so I have loved it since the first year of medical school and stuck with it.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

It just um it's it's very logically um consistent, uh cardiovascular medicine, because it's um if you can understand the physics of blood flow and um pressure and hemodynamics and um the behavior of the cardiovascular system is very um beautiful and extremely um elegant in its logic and its function.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Interesting. Okay, I love that uh description. It's more it's the logic and kind of the physics behind it that got you interested.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Would you say that's yes, and not to say that I'm you know I was great at physics, but it's you know very logically cognizant and um you know for for anyone with that kind of an outlook of things needing to be consistent and logical, cardiovascular medicine makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Interesting. Yeah, I'd love to explore more of that as we get into uh the podcast and how that may be related, you know, to your uh your work in the spiritual realm as well, that how that logic um might work or come in conflict with the spiritual aspects too.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Um but kind of an overarching question. I wanted to ask, um, you know, your institute, Santadzara Institute, describes you as a Renaissance woman. What does that mean to you and how did that get started?

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Uh I think it was uh, I'm not sure where that word specifically came from, but um uh, you know, I think it denotes um more of somebody that can do numerous things and you know, is more to me that word really implies being versatile in um being able to hold numerous viewpoints, even conflicting viewpoints. For instance, what we're going to discuss today, sometimes um medicine and spirituality may not go together. And um they may have there may be conflicting kinds of viewpoints there, um, even though I will, you know, as we get into this, you'll see there's a lot of paradox around it. So to be able to hold numerous uh paradoxical viewpoints all at once and and to be able to enjoy all of them is what that word denotes specifically for me.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

And how would you say that versatility is present in your scientific or medical practice specifically? Um, you know, how does it show up in your day-to-day life or your practice?

SPEAKER_02 4:56

I think, you know, um when you come with a versatile mind to any um field, you're able to relate differently to people. I would not I would not say that it's a quality that makes you better in any way. It's just that it you tend to understand people in a very different way. And that is fun, right? And then a large part of medicine is really um interacting with people, patients and colleagues and students and trainees and collaborators, whoever. And when you can bring a um perspective that may or not may or may not be expressed in your interaction with them, but when you have a perspective that goes beyond the obvious, you enjoy the interaction more and you grow more as a result of it. And um that is a big advantage. And these are really non-tan non-tangible benefits, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Interesting. Okay. Um, I I know you describe it as non-tangible, but I'm sure these interactions with patients and being able to see diverse perspectives or even you know hidden perspectives that others may not be able to see. I'm sure that level of skill is uh important in your research or medicine as well. Um, so you know, how might that show up in your research, like as we get into uh your cardiovascular research, or um I know you're also present in the field of cardiac imaging. Would you say that shows up also?

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Yeah, it does. But you see, that this is what I was saying earlier that um, you know, medicine and cardiovascular medicine, but all of medicine in general is it's a very linear logical field, right? It is you you have a disease and there is a cause and or not. And we are very much focused on this linear relationship between cause and effect in medicine. And but what happens when you start to go beyond that in your own uh perspective, and when you grow in faith and um in your own internal understanding of how the world works, then you can see that it's not so linear, it's not a one-to-one relationship with regard to cause and effect. There are many causes to an effect. So it's like a many-to-one and a one-to-many kind of a causative cascade. And so um it also lends itself to creativity in research and to be able to ask questions that may be kind of out of the box, right? You are thinking about things that are not so obvious. And not it's not that you know these kinds of research projects always um become successful or publishable, but at least you have investigated it and you've had fun doing it, and that's the most important thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:18

So one of the research, um one of the pieces of research that you've worked on recently is uh through the advanced cardiovascular imaging consortium. And in that piece, there were uh more than 90 institutions, correct? So, how do you say, you know, what are the impacts of those large-scale uh trials? And you know, what are some of the key lessons that showed up there? And how did this aspect of being able to see many different causes and effects uh show up in that in that research specifically?

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Yeah, advanced and there are many others uh, you know, studies like that, which are registries where waits they're called multi-center registries, right? Many centers participate in collecting data and analyzing the with the collected data. And um the beauty of these kinds of consortiums and registries is that you're working with brilliant minds. Everybody on this, um everybody working with these kinds of registries is really um uh highly intellectual and they are creative thinkers in the field. And even with advanced, if you can see um if you look at how many publications have come from that, it's all uh proof of this um theory, right? That people are always asking, these brilliant scientists are always asking these uh questions that sometimes may not make any sense. It's like, okay, this is happening. Why is this happening? Is it that is it possible that this result is the effect of some unknown cause? Let's go look for that. And and so on and so forth. And and but in these registries, we are confined to the data we have collected already. So oftentimes you see something and you can even find some uh causes that are statistically significant, but we always have to keep in mind with any kind of study that there are so many unknown and unseen causes. And in this case, those variables that we did not collect in the registry may be playing a very significant role.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Yeah, I want to focus on that a bit. You know, in in these registries, in these trials, you may not be able to collect all parts of that patient's identity. And so, how do you think that plays a role? And do you try to you know bring that into your everyday care when you actually work with patients personally?

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Absolutely. Now, you know, modern medicine is um built and it is uh it's its very strong foundation is evidence-based. So uh all our guidelines and all our practice uh management kinds of issues come from evidence-based. So they are either randomized controlled trials or they are big registry data or observational trials and so on. And um so unless the there have been a lot of such um meaningful studies, um, those data do not get uh incorporated into guidelines and guidelines and um and and the way we practice medicine, right? So having said all that, uh you can have data from huge randomized controlled trials, and you can even have guidelines, and you can have um many different guides for what to do in clinical situations. However, when you are sitting with a patient one-to-one, all of the guidelines and all of those data are important, but in a one-to-one interaction, there's a lot more that goes into it. And that is that human part, and that is the art of medicine, while all of the other is the science of medicine, and the art of medicine is to take all of that intellectual data and convert it into wisdom at the time of this interaction with a given patient on this one-to-one basis. And that thing is really where medicine is going to flourish, especially now in the age of AI and the uh incorporation of AI in diagnosis and in prescriptions, perhaps, the one thing that AI will not be able to do is the art of medicine. And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

That's really interesting. Even a previous guest that I've had on this podcast uh talked about the similar way that wisdom has to be integrated while working with the patient. For example, um, we referred to it as a mic micro and macro ethics, um, where the microethics are your day-to-day um, you know, workings with the patient. And I wanted to ask you more about that. How would you say that art of medicine, that second aspect of medicine, how did you learn that personally? Did your faith have a, or did your spirituality or faith have a role in that? And how do you apply that?

SPEAKER_02 13:56

Yes, of course. And you know, you learn that from your mentors and the people that you work with. And and then you develop your own style based on your own life experiences and your own patient interactions, and and most importantly, how you grow within yourself, right? In your personal life, in your intimate relationships, and how you are shaped by the tragedies and the triumphs of your life. So all of that plays into the art of medicine and how we interact with someone. And um the way I interact now with patients is very different, um, I would say, than how I did uh early on in my career. And that's it's uh perfect. That's how it works, and that's how it should be. Um and so I have patients that I have seen for the past 20 years who have been with me for uh from the beginning of my career, and I see how both they and I have grown and and how our interactions have changed, and um how both of us are being uh you know influenced by our life experiences. So it is um it's indeed a very beautiful unfolding um as we go along on the path of medicine. And with regard to faith, yes, absolutely, my own practice of medicine has been definitely shaped and honed by um my own practices and um the insights I've had from that.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Yeah, let's focus on that for a bit. Um, would you go more in depth into how these specific uh aspects, for example, your um your courses mentioned, you know, yoga, tantra, Ayurveda, these practices or others, how they uh influence your your work.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Yeah, and um so you know, as a background, I was always very inclined um to this internal um uh to the internal state of mind and um in in very profound ways, right from a very early age. I was very um tuned into you can say the mystical. And so um so by the time I came into came to my um fellowship in cardiology, and then um as an early career uh cardiologist, I already had a very strong practice in meditation and and associated practices. And when I when I became a faculty member in cardiology at the same time, is when I had my children and uh at the same time numerous things were happening. I was um a new um cardiologist, attending cardiologist, I had uh young children, and I was kind of being reshaped or rebuilt uh internally through my uh practices. And so when I started my cardiology practice, right away it was um a little bit of an internal conflict that I was not talking about this aspect with my patients. And especially because it was such a significant aspect in my own life and it had changed several things for me. Um and very um you know, very delicately I started to introduce the concept of meditation and the concept of um stress and how that impacts the cardiovascular system um with my patients. And to my surprise, patients were very, very, very open to this approach and they wanted more, they were hungry for it. And um anecdotally, I would I would teach patients in the office, uh, I would teach them to meditate or teach them some breathing techniques, and they would come back and tell me that their symptoms were better or they were feeling better, and they wanted me to teach their family or their friends who were having non-cardiac problems. And um obviously I couldn't use you know cardiology visits to teach meditation, right? That would not be the right thing to do. So I started a program in my hospital called Helio Heart, and that was open to the public, it was free, anyone could come, and it was like a week, my you know, a weekly class that I had. Um, and I would teach people a very systematic, uh, stepwise uh kind of a practice model, beginning with meditation, then moving on to lifestyle choices and what uh dietary and changes to make and why. And it this program was really successful and it went for seven years. So we would have a um six-month program, and at the end of the six months, I would have a three-day retreat and teach more during that retreat. And um yeah, so that's that's how it it kind of became incorporated into my practice, and um I was very fortunate that my partners and colleagues um supported that and didn't really um think it was weird. So um and and after after that time, after seven years, I decided that was enough. And um I wanted to put all of those teachings in in somewhere, in some format that I could just refer people to and not do that again and again. So I um that's when I I put out my first course on meditation and um made it available for anyone. Anyone can and it's still free, it's um available, freely available for everyone. And um, and that's when I wrote my first book, The Heart of Wellness, so that um it could be useful as a prescription.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Wow, that's great that you had you know so many patients who were willing to try that and then supportive colleagues, and now you have this course that you make freely available to everybody. That's that's really great. Um and I also love that integration of kind of I guess Eastern and Western traditions uh coming together to show, but really it the way you describe it, it's it's so sensible, it just makes sense how uh you know meditation can improve your not just your cardiovascular health, but your health in general. And uh given given that I'm really interested to learn, you know, why not uh pursue neuroscience or something like that and why go more into cardiology? Um, given that you know you're involved so much in the role of the mind in healing the body. Um that's really interesting to me.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Uh that's a good question. And numerous studies have shown um, you know, it's got it's called psychoneuroimanology, P and I. And numerous studies have shown the impact of P you know the psychoneuroimanology on the cardiovascular system. And um there is There is little doubt, I would say, with regard to the role of stress and the role of this, what I would say in the Eastern tradition of this samsaric outlook on life on cardiovascular disease. And um and also studies to demonstrate pretty significant improvements in many cardiovascular parameters with various types of meditation, including a risk reduction in secondary prevention and hypertension and cardiovascular risk factors and so on and so forth. So it's actually quite a big deal in cardiovascular medicine because one of the triggers of acute myocardial infarction or a heart attack is stress. And stress or uh an outburst of anger or anxiety or the fear, you know, fear generally, all of these um mind states are very much um engaged and in and um uh important triggers for myocardial infarction. And stress also impacts vascular health, so endothetic dysfunction, the cascade of inflammation is triggered by stress. So it's not really a neurological problem, it's a body problem, right? It is a physical problem. So the mind and body are one, and this is something that um the it's this is something that is not really um new, but it's also not very much talked about in medicine. I mean it's being talked about more now than when I first began, but um you know, this is what we need to move away from in medicine, thinking that a mental disorder, you know, it refers to the mind and the brain alone. That is not true at all, right? It because you know, when you look at um how the vagus nerve acts, how the autonomic nervous system behaves, it it's not a mind thing or a neurologic thing, it's a body thing.

unknown 24:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Interesting how the body and the mind, you know, really work as one. And so, how would you say, I guess, as a practicing physician, how do you personally reconcile evidence-based medicine with that kind of non-dual or or I guess spiritual framework? And you know, as you mentioned, it's being talked about more nowadays, but uh, what would you say are the kind of next steps?

SPEAKER_02 24:58

You know, non-duality is a it's a another, you know, several levels up from you know what we talk about as spirituality in general. Non-duality is is this profound experiential understanding and knowledge and lived experience that there is no um there is no separation between me and the world. I am the world, and the world is me, and there is no separation. And this is not conceptual, it's not an intellectual understanding, it's a uh an experiential knowledge. And so when when it comes to non-duality, there is no conflict, uh, or there is no conflict between anything and anything, because all of it is one, is is one, is being seen as a an organism, one organism moving in, you know, coherently, and there is no internal conflict in that. Now, when it comes to um, I think the the question you're asking is how do you reconcile the you know this spiritual insight with the medical practice, um which is more evidence-based and this is more intuition-based, right? So I I kind of uh shy away from the word spiritual because a lot of people seem to have an allergy to it, right? Because um they think spiritual means some hocus pocus kind of thing, whereas spirituality simply refers to the non-physical or the non-material and the the spirit of being human, which all of us you innately feel that, right? The other paradoxical or ironic thing about this is in big surveys, nearly 75 to 80 percent of physicians actually have faith, and they practice some kind of faith, they believe in they believe in some kind of a higher power. And while they have this personal practice, um most people don't want to bring that into the clinical realm because uh there tends to be a lot of my faith versus your faith, and then not to go into those kinds of discussions and and whatever the reasons may be, or that science and spirituality need to be separate, right? But the spirituality that I'm talking about is not religion, it's not faith, it is the the fundamental spirit of being alive and what that means, and this this life force that drives us all and is driving everything else, right? It's now I sound like a Jedi, but that that's really how it is, right? This life force that that moves through me is what is moving through everything else, and this when you follow this kind of a um, you know, you dig deep into this, like what is it that moves me? You start to see that the thing that moves me is what moves everything. And it's not that it's not empathy. I'm not putting myself in anybody else's place to see that. I just know that there is no separation, there's no difference between me and the other, right? And interesting, yes. So um this is um beyond. I mean, so you can say that faith or religion is like a doorway into this, right? This kind of a subtler understanding. And once you enter that, then it doesn't matter, right, what anyone's faith is. I get it. I get why you are the way you are, I get why they are the way they are, and I get why everybody is doing what they're doing, right? Because I get why I'm doing what I'm doing, and so it's a and and the the basis for that is the closest thing that comes to that is um love. You just can't help but love, and it's not love, this, that, or the other thing. It's just you become that, you become uh loving, but and it's becoming loving is also not saint-like, it's just an openness, it's an open-heartedness, and within that context, you can accept you know what science is saying, you can practice that with you know great joy and beauty, and you can also investigate what remains to be investigated, but at at the but fundamentally you move past this thing that uh the very hard lines of right and wrong, of black and white, and um of judgment, right? So if a patient comes to me and they say, I don't want to take this medicine, whereas I know that you know there is a very strong evidence base for a medicine. Um and it and they're telling me I don't want to take it. I I can't, I it's it's impossible for me to judge them. I get it, I get why they're don't want to take it, right? You know, you just also become very humble in that I can't say that if they don't take this medicine, they're not, you know, they're not going to or they are they're going to have some kind of an ill effect. I don't know that for sure. And um so what I'm saying is that you you do everything within the context of medicine, but then you also keep a very open heart and an open mind to things that are not yet discovered and not yet known.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Interesting. There's a lot to unpack there, but yes, I see I hear that how you're saying, you know, for some that people do have an allergy kind of to the word spirituality, but that spirituality and faith are not necessarily the same. Um and I I also like that sense of you know openness that you say. And I want to ask, how does using spirituality and or faith or uh you know, faith or religion as a doorway, how do these help you practice humility in terms of you know in terms of your practice? Like you mentioned that you are free from judgment of the patient when they say they don't want to take that medicine. Um but yeah, would you share more about how it you know works in the day-to-day context of medicine?

SPEAKER_02 32:23

I you know, you kind of move and uh and what I'm saying may seem really superficial, but what I'm saying is that what it means is that you see um people as no different than you, right? And and with that comes a lot of humility, because you also see yourself no better than anyone, and um you're constantly learning, even from patience, right? And pay from of course from patience from from everybody, and um so you just have a lot more fun, you just are, you know, um you are enjoying and you are um allowing yourself to feel a lot more than you did, and you are um open to whatever comes your way.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yeah. So from what I understand it, this spirituality is this aspect of openness or being able to understand that every person is the same kind of in their own way, but being able to understand why other people are different. And personally, I feel that uh faith or religion can be that I guess access point to understanding that. Because uh, you know, like you mentioned, people may not be as open to the concept of spirituality, but if we understand that each person has their own faith, and then we're able to accept even different faith, I feel that can open us to the possibility of understanding that you know shared experience, as you said, that spirituality. Um, and so that's what I want to say.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Absolutely, because you know, um the truth of it is the a very big part of who we are is shaped by our culture, and a very big part of our culture is shaped by faith and religion, and so and that is true for everybody, right? And even if um you're you come from a culture of not having any faith, say being an atheist, that is still your culture, and that's still your faith, that they that you don't have a faith, you know, or your agnostic or whatever. What I'm saying is culture is like in the center of everything that we do, it in terms of your identity, and even the kinds of medicines you will accept, and the kinds of medicines you will take, and your diet, and your lifestyle, and you know, what you do in your day, and how you deal with your problems, and how you deal with um in with things in your relationships or at work or with um tragedy or whatever happens, everything is shaped by this, you know, your identity, which is very much molded by this culture and faith. And so um when we are operating, if I am talking with you, then it is really this thing that is molded by this culture, talking to that thing which is molded by that culture, isn't it? And and so once you see past that and you see that you know, whatever your faith is, this is how you are molded, so be it. And so you are meeting that person there, right? And um and you're not asking them to be any different, you're just meeting them there. That that is who they are, right? And um, and as you said, as long as we understand everybody's coming from a specific cultural viewpoint and perspective, then you can, you know, you can understand the choices they make, you can understand the things they are resistant to and the things that they are okay with in a in a much more open-hearted way.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Yeah, the way you describe it, it sounds really unique, even though you know it it sounds like common sense that we should under that everybody should understand this, but I really like the way you explain it. And so this is kind of a non-question, I guess, now, but have you ever had to choose between that spirituality and faith? And what I'm saying is, you know, have has that ever been like a conflict, um, especially with patients, and how did you work through those situations?

SPEAKER_02 36:59

No, not at all. And and and also because you know, my definition of faith is very different. It's it's not really, you know, the rituals or the practice or anything like that. It's fundament this fundamental view that you come from is is what shapes everything else. And in Sanskrit, this is known as darshana. Darshana means the view. Like, what is your faith saying? What is what is your end goal with the faith? Like, where are you going with this? Right? What is the point of this? And when you understand that, and and for me, that that is the most important thing, that that view of my path is very clear, that it's it's beyond all this superficiality of the ritual or you know, whatever else I do on a day-to-day basis, the end game is the non-separation between me and the other. That is really what what does the whole goal of the path is that. So when you come to something from the highest view of whatever faith you are um following, take the highest view and enter life with that. Because all the world's great religions have the same view, the end, and we just get stuck in the you know, in the uh uh superficialities and the pettiness of it. But when you come to things from the highest view, you you'll start to see that you will operate in a different way. Because you if if I were to function from the highest view today, what would my life look like? What would my interactions look like? What would my work look like? And you just come to, you know, you just step into it, into that highest view every single day. And then you start to see beyond all of these, you know, the ridiculous pettiness and all of that.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Yeah. I I understand that goal-based practice. And I want to understand more, you know, how do you hone that skill on a day-to-day basis? Like I understand, you know, it's not just about the rituals and all that, but how would you practice or make practical steps uh towards achieving that end goal?

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Yeah, so within, you know, um, for me, it is like, okay, if if that is the end goal, so uh you know, as as an example, I'll just take the Bhagavad Gita, which is uh a great text. I teach this, you know, I've read it and I've been teaching it for years and years. Um so the goal there, for instance, is it's very clear on how to live your life. What should you do with your life? And that is the way to live life is karma yoga. It's known as karma yoga, which is the path of action. How do you act in life? How do you behave? How do you live? And it's very, it's very uh clearly uh you know enunciated there that the outcome of anything is not in my hands. The only thing in my hands is how I'm going to behave in this moment. Now, how and what I'm going to do? Am I going to do this with enjoyment and with all of my heart, or am I going to do this half-heartedly, or am I going to tightly hang on to a particular outcome and a goal? What if I don't achieve that? For for instance, this is the teaching that um I got in my high school, and it has um it has been with me ever since, right? So at that time, like what would have I done if I didn't get into medical school? Because I could have done everything, right? And the outcome is still not in my hands, right? So um then what should I do? Should I should I put in my best effort and then let go of the um let go of the outcome? So it's it's been the same thing with every big choice in my life, right? Whether getting into medical school, getting into the residency, getting into fellowship, and various other milestones. So so if you can act from that, which is have fun doing what you're doing, do everything you do with with the best intention, the the best outcome in mind, and then leave it. Let go of it, don't hang on to the result. And then whatever comes your way, take it as the gift. This is what you're meant to do, this is what you're meant to have. And if you can constantly operate like that day to day, right, then you start to see that your life changes.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

That's some really insightful advice. And since we're on that topic, I guess what uh what other faith what other advice would you give to a young person who you know loves science but also wants to stay true to their faith and wants to understand those uh deeper concepts that we were touching on earlier.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Yeah, I think um I I don't think there is a conflict between science and spirituality. Not at all. And it is, I'm really excited for your generation to um step into this and to find the the underlying thread of both science and spirituality and see um how to bridge the two in meaningful ways. And it can be done. Lots of people are doing it. In fact, if you look very closely, every great mind in science has had a mind that was shaped by faith and spirit. So um it's it's a um it's a thing that is not spoken of much. But if you you know just dig one level below the surface, you'll see that all great minds, or most great minds, really had um a very deep intuitive mind, and they were able to find a connection with the greater whole.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

I really love that optimism. We definitely need more of that nowadays.

SPEAKER_02 43:35

So yes, we do. And I'm very optimistic for your generation.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

Appreciate that. And um, as we you know come towards the conclusion of this, I also wanted to ask how does your medical practice uh shape the way you know you interpret that uh sense of spirituality or shared understanding of each other?

SPEAKER_02 43:56

Oh my goodness. Uh that's Such a great question. See, spirituality for me is the moment to moment unfolding of life and and how it unfolds and how um how you know how it is perceived and how it is lived, right? And uh everything adds to it. So every aspect of who you are, every aspect of your um understanding of this unfolding is um important. And and like I said very early on, when we were talking about cause and effect, this is that many-to-one um you know, cause and effect. So everything up to now, up to this moment, is going to influence how I view this moment. And in terms of how medicine um or my work influences this, you know, medicine gives us a very unique opportunity, unlike most other uh careers, where you are intimately engaged in people's lives. Because what is more intimate than somebody's health? Nothing, right? Um, because in that understanding of somebody's health and disease, you are given this rare gift of entering somebody's world and their life and their circumstances and the way they think and the way they feel and the way they are. And I don't know anything that is more spiritual than that, because that is like a doorway to the divine, and so these interactions are really very sacred. These interactions in medicine are very sacred, and they are what have fueled me um in my pursuit um of spirituality.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Yeah, I really appreciate those perspectives. Um and I really appreciate those perspectives that spirituality is this unfolding of life, and that medicine can be, you know, this intimate, basically gift that we are given to uh understand people on a deeper level. Yes, yes, I think that's a really great way that science and spirituality can coexist and actually integrate together too.

SPEAKER_02 46:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

Oh, you're welcome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

All right. It was great to have you on the show, Dr. Chinayan, and I look forward to having more of these conversations in the future.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

Thank you so much, and I wish you all the best and all my blessings for your path.

unknown 47:15

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

Thank you for joining us on Conversations in Science and Faith. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider rating and sharing it with your friends, family, and colleagues. You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. We're always looking to feature scientists, physicians, and researchers in the biomedical fields who are also active in their cultural or faith communities. If that sounds like you or someone you know, please use the link in the description to share more information. Until next time, this has been Conversations in Science and Faith.